* Kegan Stage 1: Impulsivity — The collapse of purpose, problem, and solution into a singularity; purpose arises as a purely bodily event, not distinguishable from action taken to solve the implicit problem.
Quotidian examples in an adult of Wild Desire might be selecting material to watch from the endless choice of the internet when by oneself (especially when it comes to erotic material) or deciding that it is a good moment to start preparing for bed. Unlike impulsivity, there is cognizance of the choice. Unlike reasonableness, there may be no implicit relationship to social norms
Quotidian examples in an adult of Impulsivity range from scratching an itch to spontaneously putting one's hand out a window while driving to feel the wind. A vast majority of adult actions are probably both impulsive and of negligible social consequence; only dramatic examples of impulsive behavior become fodder for further discussion.
I also think of the mythical mode as another sort of reasoning that doesn't come under the headings of reasonable, rational, meta-rational. Others have identified it with stage 2. I'm not sure I agree, although I see the logic of it. Interesting to think about whether/how it concurs or contradicts with your Wild Desire.
We're now entering two-dimensional space: Kegan Stage x as channeled by Kegan Stage y.
This happens when purpose arising in the mind of one stage dominates considerations for a mind in another stage.
The Social Mind (stage 3) channels Wild Desire (stage 2) by myth. Desire can have an energy, let's say "being a winner so the girls like me". The myth (star quarterback, rich entrepreneur, conqueror of Troy) channels that inchoate desire into particular (mythic) forms. Such mythic purpose is not arising out of the network of social norms but is rather arising out of personal, non-social motive that is secondarily channeled by social norms.
The Social Mind (Stage 3) channels Impulse (stage 1) by jail, and stage 4 and 5 (Systematicity and meta-systematicity) by ostracism (the primary channeling method of the Social Mind).
The Systematic Mind (Stage 4) primarily channels through institutions with disciplinary protocols (see how the army disciplines people away from their social mind, even if they aren't identified with the system of the army. Foucault went on and on about this.)
The Impulsive Mind (Stage 1) channels via direct violence.
The Desiring Mind (Stage 2) channels via pure incentives, mob-style: here's some money/sex/goods if you do my thing. Areas of micro-economics are a study of this.
This seems so so relevant to me! I tried to apply formal methods for problem, definitions or different frameworks for software development, but they always failed. I thought many people used them and succeeded, so maybe I'm just dumb. Now it seems to me that my desire to use these methods was compulsive avoidance of uncertainty, and not knowing about these methods would be better for me.
Also reading this chapter, I recall reading the book "the dynamic structure of everyday life". I only read several chapters from it, but I plan to return to it. It seemed so interesting to me, this deep exploration of routine activities in order to elicit patterns in them and find ways to create tools to support these activities.
since you know about this book, would you recommend it for better understanding of meta-rationality?
> Now it seems to me that my desire to use these methods was compulsive avoidance of uncertainty, and not knowing about these methods would be better for me.
That's very interesting, thank you!
I think formal methods can be useful in some circumstances. Figuring out whether they're useful in a particular situation is a meta-rational activity.
> I recall reading the book "the dynamic structure of everyday life"
That's a great paper! Phil's book was "Computation and Human Experience," which covered some of the same material.
> since you know about this book, would you recommend it for better understanding of meta-rationality?
Nit: the “leave a comment” button goes to a different article. Copy-paste error?
This seems like a good recap. It seems like you recap a lot? The recaps get better with practice and I suppose they’re necessary when blogging.
I think it’s a bit unfair to educators to claim that they don’t talk about motivation for Problems. Often they do! There is a whole genre of “story problems” that, while artificial (like most of education), at least lean in the direction of showing how math can be useful in practice. It doesn’t always work, though, and how successful they are at reaching students seems like a skill issue. Maybe it would be better to talk about common mistakes without assuming that anyone in particular has fallen for them?
I’ve long had a suspicion that Meta-Rationality is pretty close to being Reasonable behavior applied at the meta-level to decide on Purposes for rational activity. Not yet convinced that it’s different.
> Nit: the “leave a comment” button goes to a different article. Copy-paste error?
Whoops! Yes, thank you! Substack's copy-paste behavior is extremely odd in multiple ways; this is one I was not aware of, and it explains why comments have often gotten attached to wrong posts previously as well.
In this post, Reasonableness, Rationality, and Meta-Rationality line up as descriptions of purpose under:
* Kegan Stage 3: Reasonableness — Purpose under socialized mind
* Kegan Stage 4: Rationality — Purpose under systematic mind
* Kegan Stage 5: Meta-Rationality — Purpose under meta-systematic mind
Exploring Kegan Stage 1 and 2 (and stripping them of some of the negative valence back-cast upon them by higher levels):
* Kegan Stage 2: Wild Desire — Purpose, independent of socialization (socially unaccountable)
* Kegan Stage 1: Impulsivity — The collapse of purpose, problem, and solution into a singularity; purpose arises as a purely bodily event, not distinguishable from action taken to solve the implicit problem.
Quotidian examples in an adult of Wild Desire might be selecting material to watch from the endless choice of the internet when by oneself (especially when it comes to erotic material) or deciding that it is a good moment to start preparing for bed. Unlike impulsivity, there is cognizance of the choice. Unlike reasonableness, there may be no implicit relationship to social norms
Quotidian examples in an adult of Impulsivity range from scratching an itch to spontaneously putting one's hand out a window while driving to feel the wind. A vast majority of adult actions are probably both impulsive and of negligible social consequence; only dramatic examples of impulsive behavior become fodder for further discussion.
Seems right!
I also think of the mythical mode as another sort of reasoning that doesn't come under the headings of reasonable, rational, meta-rational. Others have identified it with stage 2. I'm not sure I agree, although I see the logic of it. Interesting to think about whether/how it concurs or contradicts with your Wild Desire.
Here's what came up for me:
We're now entering two-dimensional space: Kegan Stage x as channeled by Kegan Stage y.
This happens when purpose arising in the mind of one stage dominates considerations for a mind in another stage.
The Social Mind (stage 3) channels Wild Desire (stage 2) by myth. Desire can have an energy, let's say "being a winner so the girls like me". The myth (star quarterback, rich entrepreneur, conqueror of Troy) channels that inchoate desire into particular (mythic) forms. Such mythic purpose is not arising out of the network of social norms but is rather arising out of personal, non-social motive that is secondarily channeled by social norms.
The Social Mind (Stage 3) channels Impulse (stage 1) by jail, and stage 4 and 5 (Systematicity and meta-systematicity) by ostracism (the primary channeling method of the Social Mind).
The Systematic Mind (Stage 4) primarily channels through institutions with disciplinary protocols (see how the army disciplines people away from their social mind, even if they aren't identified with the system of the army. Foucault went on and on about this.)
The Impulsive Mind (Stage 1) channels via direct violence.
The Desiring Mind (Stage 2) channels via pure incentives, mob-style: here's some money/sex/goods if you do my thing. Areas of micro-economics are a study of this.
The Meta-systematic mind (Stage 5) has no fixed way of channeling other stages. Zhuangzi's tale of Butcher Ding is guidance here: https://thedewdrop.org/2020/05/18/the-dexterous-butcher-zhuangzi/
This seems so so relevant to me! I tried to apply formal methods for problem, definitions or different frameworks for software development, but they always failed. I thought many people used them and succeeded, so maybe I'm just dumb. Now it seems to me that my desire to use these methods was compulsive avoidance of uncertainty, and not knowing about these methods would be better for me.
Also reading this chapter, I recall reading the book "the dynamic structure of everyday life". I only read several chapters from it, but I plan to return to it. It seemed so interesting to me, this deep exploration of routine activities in order to elicit patterns in them and find ways to create tools to support these activities.
since you know about this book, would you recommend it for better understanding of meta-rationality?
> Now it seems to me that my desire to use these methods was compulsive avoidance of uncertainty, and not knowing about these methods would be better for me.
That's very interesting, thank you!
I think formal methods can be useful in some circumstances. Figuring out whether they're useful in a particular situation is a meta-rational activity.
> I recall reading the book "the dynamic structure of everyday life"
That's a great paper! Phil's book was "Computation and Human Experience," which covered some of the same material.
> since you know about this book, would you recommend it for better understanding of meta-rationality?
Yes, I would. I have more recommendations here as well: https://meaningness.com/further-reading#meta
Thank you for the recommendations!
I've noticed that your 'Lucy Suchman’s Plans and Situated Actions' link leads to another book: Human-Machine Reconfigurations
oh, I got it. it is the second edition
Yup! It's basically the original book plus a lot of commentary written thirty years later.
Nit: the “leave a comment” button goes to a different article. Copy-paste error?
This seems like a good recap. It seems like you recap a lot? The recaps get better with practice and I suppose they’re necessary when blogging.
I think it’s a bit unfair to educators to claim that they don’t talk about motivation for Problems. Often they do! There is a whole genre of “story problems” that, while artificial (like most of education), at least lean in the direction of showing how math can be useful in practice. It doesn’t always work, though, and how successful they are at reaching students seems like a skill issue. Maybe it would be better to talk about common mistakes without assuming that anyone in particular has fallen for them?
I’ve long had a suspicion that Meta-Rationality is pretty close to being Reasonable behavior applied at the meta-level to decide on Purposes for rational activity. Not yet convinced that it’s different.
> Nit: the “leave a comment” button goes to a different article. Copy-paste error?
Whoops! Yes, thank you! Substack's copy-paste behavior is extremely odd in multiple ways; this is one I was not aware of, and it explains why comments have often gotten attached to wrong posts previously as well.