Your *building a website in a Starbucks for a crazy street person (dakini)* experience is still one of my favorite anecdotes from Buddhism for Vampires. I've always wanted to hear more!
it seems to me that the best coaches (and therapists) have been facing a similar issue and have figured out a few ways around it. (they aren't necessarily selling enlightenment, but the kind of development that is at the high end not so different from rigpa in my experience. see steve hardison for an example of this)
you *can* sell the diagnosis to obstacles and offer a container to help continual realization of their already awakened nature.
Yes... the best dzogchen teachers do that too.. but I think in all these fields, the explicit value proposition has to be something different. So therapists supposedly treat mental illness, or at a more sophisticated level they help with emotional confusions or life problems. They don't explicitly offer "informal advice on self-development" even if that's what the "patient" needs and (implicitly) wants.
I've been reading Meaningness on and off since around 2016; stumbled across Vividness and Buddhism for Vampires around the same time. Wondered how Dzogchen was pronounced back then, but this vid today is the first time I've heard it spoken. Thank you
It’s tough to sell in our current economy of thoughts, but I think there’s something useful in the idea that the quality of awareness is the product, something that reveals itself as a beneficent unfolding through participation.
I'd love to hear more about this, particularly the last line:
Those (i.e. the various economic arrangements) depended on cultural patterns that we don’t have in the West. The main one, monasticism, mostly doesn’t work in the West, despite attempts.
I'm really interested to know why and how monasticism doesn't/hasn't worked in the West, and I guess what's different about the Eastern context that made it work there.
Well, one way to see this is to consider why Christian monasticism is now vestigial in the West, where it was once a major part of Western societies. (What would your answer to that be?)
This post emphasized the economic context of Buddhism. There's two sides to monasticism as an economic transaction: why did laypeople support monks economically? And why was anyone willing to be a monk, considering that the essence of monasticism is renunciation, which means deprivation of all sources of enjoyment? (https://vividness.live/renunciation-in-buddhism)
Lay people believed that they were buying their way into a better rebirth. Giving money to monasteries was a way of avoiding some of the future-life consequences of bad actions in this life. (Interestingly parallel to the selling of indulgences by the Christian church before the Reformation.) No one in the West believes that's going to work.
Only a small minority of Buddhist monks had significant religious vocation. If you were a monk by choice, it was usually because the economic alternative was subsistence farming, which is brutal. Being a monk made it unlikely you would starve to death, and the physical workload was usually less.
Further, many monks were de facto slaves, who did forced labor for the benefit of the owners of the monastery (https://vividness.live/buddhist-morality-is-medieval#slavery). Many were not there by choice; they were drafted, often as young children. In many Buddhist cultures, once you were a monk, you were stuck as one for life; getting out was impossible.
So being a traditional monk is not something almost anyone would now choose, because nearly everyone has better options.
There are more comfortable versions of monasticism now, but they still require giving up most of what makes life worth living. And who is going to pay for your food and shelter? Why would they?
Alternatively to monks (or really in addition), Russia had a tradition of pilgrims which is also really interesting. Monks kept monasteries. Priests would run local churches that would serve communities, and pilgrims would go out on their own.
A part of how pilgrims were able to make it was because people in rural communities revered these crazy homeless men. If a pilgrim showed up at your door asking for a meal and a place to sleep, it was considered an honor to welcome them.
Hard to imagine having a place for something like that in the current world. And as you point out: this is basically an economic exchange. It’s not much, but a person could decide to be a homeless ascetic with some confidence they wouldn’t die because they knew they could probably count on people to help them out.
I learned about this from the book ‘The Way of the Pilgrim,’ which is a classic of Eastern Orthodox Christian literature. It’s a great book. I learned about it from JD Salinger’s ‘Franny and Zooey.’ Which is about a young girl who goes a little crazy after reading ‘The Way…’ Something sort of similar happened to me after I read it, tbh, tho it was fleeting.
What I like to say about Franny & Zooey is that it’s a book about a book about a book about the Bible. Worth checking out.
Basically the pilgrim discovers his own little approach to meditation and it is a breakthrough for him.
I have never practiced Zen, but mantra recitation in Vajrayana Buddhism functions similarly. If you repeat the mantra enough deliberately, it becomes automatic, and repeats itself through much of your day. In Vajrayana, the mantra is also connected with a deity, and the repetition, whether deliberate or automatic, comes with the felt sense of the presence of the deity.
I knew the title “Franny and Zooey” but had no idea what it was about. I was surprised! I went and read the Wikipedia article to learn more. And then followed links to the article on The Way of the Pilgrim, and then hesychasm, and….
oh dude you have to read franny and zooey, though I dunno how it hits as an emotionally mature and well-read adult, I encountered it as a teenager and got a mix of “this girl having a nervous breakdown is so right!! she gets it!!” but also it was my first intro to like anything spiritual at all, I read the gospels, the gita, epictetus, sri ramakrishna, and the way of the pilgrim all after first encountering them from that. I have a bunch more to say about it but https://alicemaz.substack.com/p/you-can-just-do-stuff you can ctrl+F “one of the books”
you would know better than me since I’m not really a meditator but I think the jesus prayer method is mechanically similar to jhana stuff, and probably there are links to like dharmic mantra type practices, and it just was discovered independently. the way they talk about the jesus prayer is that it starts “in the mouth” (you’re just saying it) then goes “in the head” (it becomes a voice you hear rather than actively think") and then “descends to the heart” where it becomes this constant feeling or awareness synchronized to the heartbeat that is probably physiologically similar to buddhist things you know of but I don’t. they describe it as a constant warmth in the chest, awareness shifting to the torso, a “softness” where you become very emotionally open and sensitive, and cessation of inner monologue or “stillness.” I thought of jhanas because jhanabros have this line where at some point “the jhana does itself” and the hesychasts describe a point where “the prayer prays itself”
I keep starting to read this and then getting distracted by something else. I'm sorry that I still haven't!
One of the things I keep getting distracted by is the diagram at the top. It brought back memories: I saw it daily starting in 1978, hung on the wall in the "machine room" of the MIT CS department. (I think the 1977 version may have been the last, and it was left up for several years thereafter.) The ARPANet routers were called "IMPs," "Interface Message Processors," which were industrial-refrigerator sized, and crashed every few hours. The one labeled "MIT 6" was in that machine room. So whenever we lost network connectivity, someone (which was sometimes me) had to go over and reboot it. I've been rebooting routers for nearly half a century! And I'm still at it (though less often)!
> I think the jesus prayer method is mechanically similar to jhana stuff, and probably there are links to like dharmic mantra type practices
I suspect that's right! (By weird coincidence I'll be posting a piece about mantra in a day or so.)
> it just was discovered independently
Or it was cultural diffusion. There's enough similarities in details of serious Christian and Buddhist practice that it can't be coincidental. Not sure this is an example, but I suspect it is.
> it starts “in the mouth” (you’re just saying it) then goes “in the head” (it becomes a voice you hear rather than actively think") and then “descends to the heart” where it becomes this constant feeling or awareness synchronized to the heartbeat that is probably physiologically similar to buddhist things you know of but I don’t. they describe it as a constant warmth in the chest, awareness shifting to the torso, a “softness” where you become very emotionally open and sensitive, and cessation of inner monologue or “stillness.” I thought of jhanas because jhanabros have this line where at some point “the jhana does itself” and the hesychasts describe a point where “the prayer prays itself”
Yes, this is also my experience of tantric mantra practice!
Both "The Way" and "F&Z" are very short books and I really valued reading both of them! I've read "The Way" at least twice. I've never quite managed getting far into The Philokalia, which is the book that showed the pilgrim the way to his way, however (it's a commentary on the Bible).
is this in past tense because it’s specifically about tibetan or dzogchen? monks are definitely still a big thing in thailand, and I assume other theravadan cultures (I don’t have personal witness but do know secondhand they have extremely high political salience in burma). I definitely see them hanging out in public way more than I ever saw priests/monks/nuns in the west, and plenty of them are pretty young. I don’t know how many are permanent though because another interesting thing is it’s not uncommon for young men to take vows for a few months as a way to make merit
the merit economy is huge though, people donate a lot, and it’s common to donate on behalf of others as a sort of gift to them for weddings and funerals and holidays
if I had to compare with christianity I’d say it’s just because of secularism. like young thai urbanites are not way more “religious” than their western counterparts (in that they have fairly similar lifestyles, eg aren’t doing crazy prayer sessions or fasts or constant church visits etc that a western “religious” person would) but it’s just part of the culture. in the same way that it was in the west maybe a hundred years ago? like you live your life normally but you tithe instead of giving to ngos, your wedding spend goes to the church instead of random event venues and freelancers on instagram, etc
actually I was reading about mt athos visits and it’s basically you do 4 days of hardcore monk type stuff, but it made me think a cool thing would be if there were monasteries that were set up for (lol) “monkmoding.” like resident population is doing the kind of medieval thing of pray a few hours work a few hours maintain the abode a few hours. maybe open source software or humanities research/writing instead of illuminating manuscripts and making beer. and host vistors for on the order of months. no phone, laptop with a short dns whitelist, do all the same religious stuff and an expectation your personal work you do as a sabbatical is, something you can legitimately say you’re doing not for a job or for clients but for god
> is this in past tense because it’s specifically about tibetan or dzogchen?
Uh, yes, I suppose so, in part at least!
> monks are definitely still a big thing in thailand, ... and plenty of them are pretty young... it’s not uncommon for young men to take vows for a few months as a way to make merit
Yes. So, very different utility trade-offs for that versus how it was in Tibet; and (I think?) also how it was until a few decades ago in Thailand. This is part of what I meant by "There are more comfortable versions of monasticism now."
> the merit economy is huge though, people donate a lot
Yes... When Charlie was doing a Masters' in international development at LSE, we semi-seriously considered coauthoring an academic paper on leveraging the merit economy as a development strategy for various Asian countries. Also, a bit less seriously, writing a deadpan paper on tradeable merit derivatives (merit for future delivery, equity shares in monasteries that produce the stuff, options on both those, etc.) to see if we could get it accepted by a decent journal. Remarkably, all those things already exist (and have for centuries), but there aren't efficient markets in them, so Pareto improvements are feasible!
> a cool thing would be if there were monasteries that were set up for (lol) “monkmoding.” like resident population is doing the kind of medieval thing of pray a few hours work a few hours maintain the abode a few hours. maybe open source software or humanities research/writing instead of illuminating manuscripts and making beer. and host vistors for on the order of months. no phone, laptop with a short dns whitelist, do all the same religious stuff and an expectation your personal work you do as a sabbatical is, something you can legitimately say you’re doing not for a job or for clients but for god
I kinda think that maybe exists? Monastic Academy (https://www.monasticacademy.org/) might be an example, or maybe L'Abri? (https://labri.org/) I don't know much about either, and there may be better examples, or maybe not
You can sell something if there's common knowledge that it has some comprehensible purpose (the maybe-upcoming post about effective action is probably relevant here).
>“You are enlightened” is always true. It’s meaningfully and importantly so; not just trivially, not just on a technicality, or on the basis of a gimmicky, unhelpful, rug-pull definition.
I still haven't the faintest idea what are you trying to get at here, and I feel that I should have, at this point... Perhaps you can say, what are the practical implications of us being "always already enlightened"?
"“We are always already nothing other than all-pervasive, unchanging, beneficent, luminous, impersonal space” is not about the mind or matter, and it is not true or false. It is an instruction."
I'd say it's reasonable to call instructions neither true or false; saying that they are always true seems to me to bring in confusion to no clear benefit, especially when they syntactically read like descriptive statements about reality, and not like common instructions.
I also agree that it's unnecessarily confusing, but this is a thing from an alien culture a thousand years ago that was not particularly marked by clear thinking. I am doing my best to clarify.
Well, to recap, I quoted your statement in the footnote: "“You are enlightened” is always true. It’s meaningfully and importantly so; not just trivially, not just on a technicality, or on the basis of a gimmicky, unhelpful, rug-pull definition." Is your intended meaning of “you are enlightened” here the same as that of "we are always already nothing other than all-pervasive, unchanging, beneficent, luminous, impersonal space" in the post, i.e. an instruction? If no, what is it then? If yes, why did you claim that it was always true?
So, as far as I can tell, Dzogchen is an esoteric explanation that has to be understood a particular way. In addition, this is only possible to happen if the required preparatory work, such as meditation, has been put in.
Yes… ish… although it’s not “esoteric” in the usual sense of “metaphysical,” and meditation is neither necessary nor sufficient (but tends to help). More about that here: https://vividness.live/non-statement
Oh, that's funny. That's not the meaning of "esoteric" that I know. The meaning that I know of "esoteric" is "holding a secret meaning". I never heard of the "metaphysical" connotation before.
I might come back to that article you linked later. I'm not up for more reading right now.
Random other thought that isn't related to my other comment:
I wonder if you can be enlightened while on anti-psychotic medication. I struggle with having will to do anything substantive in my free time (though I'm very good at taking care of myself and doing the things that are necessary). This seems like a problem with brain chemistry that can't be overcome by becoming "enlightened".
Just want to +1 this--it is also my understanding that the kind of enlightenment Dzogchen is concerned with is not the "will make you a healthier person" kind. It's "always already the case," which includes states of mental and physical illness. Some people seem to think that enlightenment would cure physical illness; even more people seem convinced it would cure mental illness. And so, there's this idea that people have to be physically and/or mentally healthy to be enlightened.
I would think that someone who knows what to look for can sell "the opportunity to improvise attempts to help the student understand dzogchan". Which isn't that appealing but it is something
Yes... that would be honest... I don't know of anyone who does that explicitly... and I don't know how you would structure it. What happens in practice is that the teacher does this extemporaneously, briefly, occasionally, in the course of explicitly teaching something else. (Traditionally, that is usually tantra or metaphysics.)
Your *building a website in a Starbucks for a crazy street person (dakini)* experience is still one of my favorite anecdotes from Buddhism for Vampires. I've always wanted to hear more!
From now on, I plan to always ask for “extra foofaraw” at the drive-thru. (Excited to see what transpires!) 😂
P.s.: Just love the line “there’s no point asking ChatGPT how to get to Paris if you’re in Paris.”
Are there no secrets, or is there actually no Dzogchen and no enlightenment? 😏😁🤭
it seems to me that the best coaches (and therapists) have been facing a similar issue and have figured out a few ways around it. (they aren't necessarily selling enlightenment, but the kind of development that is at the high end not so different from rigpa in my experience. see steve hardison for an example of this)
you *can* sell the diagnosis to obstacles and offer a container to help continual realization of their already awakened nature.
Yes... the best dzogchen teachers do that too.. but I think in all these fields, the explicit value proposition has to be something different. So therapists supposedly treat mental illness, or at a more sophisticated level they help with emotional confusions or life problems. They don't explicitly offer "informal advice on self-development" even if that's what the "patient" needs and (implicitly) wants.
Loving this post. Thanks, David
I've been reading Meaningness on and off since around 2016; stumbled across Vividness and Buddhism for Vampires around the same time. Wondered how Dzogchen was pronounced back then, but this vid today is the first time I've heard it spoken. Thank you
Might we get it from a crazy Internet person on Substack?
Excellent.
It’s tough to sell in our current economy of thoughts, but I think there’s something useful in the idea that the quality of awareness is the product, something that reveals itself as a beneficent unfolding through participation.
I'd love to hear more about this, particularly the last line:
Those (i.e. the various economic arrangements) depended on cultural patterns that we don’t have in the West. The main one, monasticism, mostly doesn’t work in the West, despite attempts.
I'm really interested to know why and how monasticism doesn't/hasn't worked in the West, and I guess what's different about the Eastern context that made it work there.
Well, one way to see this is to consider why Christian monasticism is now vestigial in the West, where it was once a major part of Western societies. (What would your answer to that be?)
This post emphasized the economic context of Buddhism. There's two sides to monasticism as an economic transaction: why did laypeople support monks economically? And why was anyone willing to be a monk, considering that the essence of monasticism is renunciation, which means deprivation of all sources of enjoyment? (https://vividness.live/renunciation-in-buddhism)
Lay people believed that they were buying their way into a better rebirth. Giving money to monasteries was a way of avoiding some of the future-life consequences of bad actions in this life. (Interestingly parallel to the selling of indulgences by the Christian church before the Reformation.) No one in the West believes that's going to work.
Only a small minority of Buddhist monks had significant religious vocation. If you were a monk by choice, it was usually because the economic alternative was subsistence farming, which is brutal. Being a monk made it unlikely you would starve to death, and the physical workload was usually less.
Further, many monks were de facto slaves, who did forced labor for the benefit of the owners of the monastery (https://vividness.live/buddhist-morality-is-medieval#slavery). Many were not there by choice; they were drafted, often as young children. In many Buddhist cultures, once you were a monk, you were stuck as one for life; getting out was impossible.
So being a traditional monk is not something almost anyone would now choose, because nearly everyone has better options.
There are more comfortable versions of monasticism now, but they still require giving up most of what makes life worth living. And who is going to pay for your food and shelter? Why would they?
Alternatively to monks (or really in addition), Russia had a tradition of pilgrims which is also really interesting. Monks kept monasteries. Priests would run local churches that would serve communities, and pilgrims would go out on their own.
A part of how pilgrims were able to make it was because people in rural communities revered these crazy homeless men. If a pilgrim showed up at your door asking for a meal and a place to sleep, it was considered an honor to welcome them.
Hard to imagine having a place for something like that in the current world. And as you point out: this is basically an economic exchange. It’s not much, but a person could decide to be a homeless ascetic with some confidence they wouldn’t die because they knew they could probably count on people to help them out.
I learned about this from the book ‘The Way of the Pilgrim,’ which is a classic of Eastern Orthodox Christian literature. It’s a great book. I learned about it from JD Salinger’s ‘Franny and Zooey.’ Which is about a young girl who goes a little crazy after reading ‘The Way…’ Something sort of similar happened to me after I read it, tbh, tho it was fleeting.
What I like to say about Franny & Zooey is that it’s a book about a book about a book about the Bible. Worth checking out.
Basically the pilgrim discovers his own little approach to meditation and it is a breakthrough for him.
Oh, this is fascinating, thank you!
I have never practiced Zen, but mantra recitation in Vajrayana Buddhism functions similarly. If you repeat the mantra enough deliberately, it becomes automatic, and repeats itself through much of your day. In Vajrayana, the mantra is also connected with a deity, and the repetition, whether deliberate or automatic, comes with the felt sense of the presence of the deity.
I knew the title “Franny and Zooey” but had no idea what it was about. I was surprised! I went and read the Wikipedia article to learn more. And then followed links to the article on The Way of the Pilgrim, and then hesychasm, and….
oh dude you have to read franny and zooey, though I dunno how it hits as an emotionally mature and well-read adult, I encountered it as a teenager and got a mix of “this girl having a nervous breakdown is so right!! she gets it!!” but also it was my first intro to like anything spiritual at all, I read the gospels, the gita, epictetus, sri ramakrishna, and the way of the pilgrim all after first encountering them from that. I have a bunch more to say about it but https://alicemaz.substack.com/p/you-can-just-do-stuff you can ctrl+F “one of the books”
you would know better than me since I’m not really a meditator but I think the jesus prayer method is mechanically similar to jhana stuff, and probably there are links to like dharmic mantra type practices, and it just was discovered independently. the way they talk about the jesus prayer is that it starts “in the mouth” (you’re just saying it) then goes “in the head” (it becomes a voice you hear rather than actively think") and then “descends to the heart” where it becomes this constant feeling or awareness synchronized to the heartbeat that is probably physiologically similar to buddhist things you know of but I don’t. they describe it as a constant warmth in the chest, awareness shifting to the torso, a “softness” where you become very emotionally open and sensitive, and cessation of inner monologue or “stillness.” I thought of jhanas because jhanabros have this line where at some point “the jhana does itself” and the hesychasts describe a point where “the prayer prays itself”
Thank you for these in-depth comments, and sorry to be slow to reply!
> franny and zooey
I think I bounced off it because Catcher in the Rye did nothing for me. But apparently F&Z is very different!
> I have a bunch more to say about it but https://alicemaz.substack.com/p/you-can-just-do-stuff you can ctrl+F “one of the books”
I keep starting to read this and then getting distracted by something else. I'm sorry that I still haven't!
One of the things I keep getting distracted by is the diagram at the top. It brought back memories: I saw it daily starting in 1978, hung on the wall in the "machine room" of the MIT CS department. (I think the 1977 version may have been the last, and it was left up for several years thereafter.) The ARPANet routers were called "IMPs," "Interface Message Processors," which were industrial-refrigerator sized, and crashed every few hours. The one labeled "MIT 6" was in that machine room. So whenever we lost network connectivity, someone (which was sometimes me) had to go over and reboot it. I've been rebooting routers for nearly half a century! And I'm still at it (though less often)!
> I think the jesus prayer method is mechanically similar to jhana stuff, and probably there are links to like dharmic mantra type practices
I suspect that's right! (By weird coincidence I'll be posting a piece about mantra in a day or so.)
> it just was discovered independently
Or it was cultural diffusion. There's enough similarities in details of serious Christian and Buddhist practice that it can't be coincidental. Not sure this is an example, but I suspect it is.
> it starts “in the mouth” (you’re just saying it) then goes “in the head” (it becomes a voice you hear rather than actively think") and then “descends to the heart” where it becomes this constant feeling or awareness synchronized to the heartbeat that is probably physiologically similar to buddhist things you know of but I don’t. they describe it as a constant warmth in the chest, awareness shifting to the torso, a “softness” where you become very emotionally open and sensitive, and cessation of inner monologue or “stillness.” I thought of jhanas because jhanabros have this line where at some point “the jhana does itself” and the hesychasts describe a point where “the prayer prays itself”
Yes, this is also my experience of tantric mantra practice!
Oh great! Yeah it's interesting stuff.
Both "The Way" and "F&Z" are very short books and I really valued reading both of them! I've read "The Way" at least twice. I've never quite managed getting far into The Philokalia, which is the book that showed the pilgrim the way to his way, however (it's a commentary on the Bible).
is this in past tense because it’s specifically about tibetan or dzogchen? monks are definitely still a big thing in thailand, and I assume other theravadan cultures (I don’t have personal witness but do know secondhand they have extremely high political salience in burma). I definitely see them hanging out in public way more than I ever saw priests/monks/nuns in the west, and plenty of them are pretty young. I don’t know how many are permanent though because another interesting thing is it’s not uncommon for young men to take vows for a few months as a way to make merit
the merit economy is huge though, people donate a lot, and it’s common to donate on behalf of others as a sort of gift to them for weddings and funerals and holidays
if I had to compare with christianity I’d say it’s just because of secularism. like young thai urbanites are not way more “religious” than their western counterparts (in that they have fairly similar lifestyles, eg aren’t doing crazy prayer sessions or fasts or constant church visits etc that a western “religious” person would) but it’s just part of the culture. in the same way that it was in the west maybe a hundred years ago? like you live your life normally but you tithe instead of giving to ngos, your wedding spend goes to the church instead of random event venues and freelancers on instagram, etc
actually I was reading about mt athos visits and it’s basically you do 4 days of hardcore monk type stuff, but it made me think a cool thing would be if there were monasteries that were set up for (lol) “monkmoding.” like resident population is doing the kind of medieval thing of pray a few hours work a few hours maintain the abode a few hours. maybe open source software or humanities research/writing instead of illuminating manuscripts and making beer. and host vistors for on the order of months. no phone, laptop with a short dns whitelist, do all the same religious stuff and an expectation your personal work you do as a sabbatical is, something you can legitimately say you’re doing not for a job or for clients but for god
> is this in past tense because it’s specifically about tibetan or dzogchen?
Uh, yes, I suppose so, in part at least!
> monks are definitely still a big thing in thailand, ... and plenty of them are pretty young... it’s not uncommon for young men to take vows for a few months as a way to make merit
Yes. So, very different utility trade-offs for that versus how it was in Tibet; and (I think?) also how it was until a few decades ago in Thailand. This is part of what I meant by "There are more comfortable versions of monasticism now."
> the merit economy is huge though, people donate a lot
Yes... When Charlie was doing a Masters' in international development at LSE, we semi-seriously considered coauthoring an academic paper on leveraging the merit economy as a development strategy for various Asian countries. Also, a bit less seriously, writing a deadpan paper on tradeable merit derivatives (merit for future delivery, equity shares in monasteries that produce the stuff, options on both those, etc.) to see if we could get it accepted by a decent journal. Remarkably, all those things already exist (and have for centuries), but there aren't efficient markets in them, so Pareto improvements are feasible!
> a cool thing would be if there were monasteries that were set up for (lol) “monkmoding.” like resident population is doing the kind of medieval thing of pray a few hours work a few hours maintain the abode a few hours. maybe open source software or humanities research/writing instead of illuminating manuscripts and making beer. and host vistors for on the order of months. no phone, laptop with a short dns whitelist, do all the same religious stuff and an expectation your personal work you do as a sabbatical is, something you can legitimately say you’re doing not for a job or for clients but for god
I kinda think that maybe exists? Monastic Academy (https://www.monasticacademy.org/) might be an example, or maybe L'Abri? (https://labri.org/) I don't know much about either, and there may be better examples, or maybe not
You can sell something if there's common knowledge that it has some comprehensible purpose (the maybe-upcoming post about effective action is probably relevant here).
>“You are enlightened” is always true. It’s meaningfully and importantly so; not just trivially, not just on a technicality, or on the basis of a gimmicky, unhelpful, rug-pull definition.
I still haven't the faintest idea what are you trying to get at here, and I feel that I should have, at this point... Perhaps you can say, what are the practical implications of us being "always already enlightened"?
> Perhaps you can say, what are the practical implications of us being "always already enlightened"?
Probably not: https://vividness.live/non-statement
"“We are always already nothing other than all-pervasive, unchanging, beneficent, luminous, impersonal space” is not about the mind or matter, and it is not true or false. It is an instruction."
So, is it always true, or neither true or false?
Is "rinse, lather, repeat" always true, or neither true or false? No: it is an instruction.
I'd say it's reasonable to call instructions neither true or false; saying that they are always true seems to me to bring in confusion to no clear benefit, especially when they syntactically read like descriptive statements about reality, and not like common instructions.
I agree! (Did I seem to say that this was true?)
I also agree that it's unnecessarily confusing, but this is a thing from an alien culture a thousand years ago that was not particularly marked by clear thinking. I am doing my best to clarify.
Well, to recap, I quoted your statement in the footnote: "“You are enlightened” is always true. It’s meaningfully and importantly so; not just trivially, not just on a technicality, or on the basis of a gimmicky, unhelpful, rug-pull definition." Is your intended meaning of “you are enlightened” here the same as that of "we are always already nothing other than all-pervasive, unchanging, beneficent, luminous, impersonal space" in the post, i.e. an instruction? If no, what is it then? If yes, why did you claim that it was always true?
So, as far as I can tell, Dzogchen is an esoteric explanation that has to be understood a particular way. In addition, this is only possible to happen if the required preparatory work, such as meditation, has been put in.
Yes… ish… although it’s not “esoteric” in the usual sense of “metaphysical,” and meditation is neither necessary nor sufficient (but tends to help). More about that here: https://vividness.live/non-statement
Oh, that's funny. That's not the meaning of "esoteric" that I know. The meaning that I know of "esoteric" is "holding a secret meaning". I never heard of the "metaphysical" connotation before.
I might come back to that article you linked later. I'm not up for more reading right now.
Not being able to sell it isn’t a problem because there’s no scarcity of it 😉
Random other thought that isn't related to my other comment:
I wonder if you can be enlightened while on anti-psychotic medication. I struggle with having will to do anything substantive in my free time (though I'm very good at taking care of myself and doing the things that are necessary). This seems like a problem with brain chemistry that can't be overcome by becoming "enlightened".
Just want to +1 this--it is also my understanding that the kind of enlightenment Dzogchen is concerned with is not the "will make you a healthier person" kind. It's "always already the case," which includes states of mental and physical illness. Some people seem to think that enlightenment would cure physical illness; even more people seem convinced it would cure mental illness. And so, there's this idea that people have to be physically and/or mentally healthy to be enlightened.
Your comment seems to suggest that it is possible to become enlightened even while suffering under the effects of my medication, which is heartening.
I would think that someone who knows what to look for can sell "the opportunity to improvise attempts to help the student understand dzogchan". Which isn't that appealing but it is something
Yes... that would be honest... I don't know of anyone who does that explicitly... and I don't know how you would structure it. What happens in practice is that the teacher does this extemporaneously, briefly, occasionally, in the course of explicitly teaching something else. (Traditionally, that is usually tantra or metaphysics.)
It does sound like it might be best understood when you're not focusing on it or looking for it explicitly
Bookshelf.