Very fun and endearing listen! Would love more conversations between you two :) I’m curious how you’d define kindness/being kind as I only remember you saying what it *wasn’t*?
We do have a list, currently with sixteen topics on it, so there may be lots more episodes coming. On the other hand, editing this one was a full day's work, which is an obstacle, and trades off against writing. On a third hand, I will probably get faster at the editing, and if we learn to talk more coherently, there will be less editing needed!
I would have a hard time trying to say what kindness *is*; it's a "know it when you see it" thing for me. Maybe Charlie could say more. They've posted it at https://vajrayananow.com/kindness-how, and you could ask there in a comment!
The reason I made the list of what it *isn't* was to point at it indirectly, by carving away bits of adjacent space. It turned out we only got to two of the items on the list... I hope we will be better organized next time!
Thanks for sharing, David, I enjoyed it a lot. After listening to your story of the couple on the elevator, I decided to ask you something I've wanted to ask a long time ago. Do you know Non Violent Communication, developed by Marshall Rosenberg? I believe you could derive a lot of value from it. Especially relevant to the story you told, but also, I believe, with a lot of relevance to other ideas you hold. You can think of CNV as a system for empathic, compassionate and kind communication, but also as an alternative framing of the world without moral judgments, based on needs and value judgments expressed responsibly and compassionately. Would love to hear your thoughts about it.
Thanks! I know *of* NVC, but I don't know much about it. Charlie got a copy of the book recently and it's sitting in an obvious place in the living room, but neither of us has gotten to read it yet.
The book is good, but honestly I believe it fails to really communicate the power of the perspective and strategies. In addition to the book, the best way to really understand are the videos of live workshops on YouTube: there is one of about three hours ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7TONauJGfc&pp=ygUMbnZjIHdvcmtzaG9w ), and another of around eight. Both are really beautiful and incredibly valuable in my estimation (I've attended to them at least three times each). Would love to listen to your (and Charlie's) take on them.
The elevator story made me immediately think "That's exactly as NVC empathic listening must seem to an open outside viewer", honestly, when done skillfully, is like magic. My interest goes beyond the techniques, to the philosophical/"spiritual" perspective, but precisely because of the great effect it have had on my relation with others and with myself.
I hope this maybe stimulate you to give it a chance. Of course, it might be a little bit the experience Charlie described as "finding a system for the first time", hahaha, but I'm not so sure about that (since is definitely not my first "system", I don't think anyone _should_ do or use it, etc.).
By the way, I feel grateful for your work, though I'm still getting to know it. I hope you continue doing it, because it seems very valuable to me. I hope to be able to work your IA book soon and hopefully share my questions and ideas around it with you (I already have it physically with me). Anyway, cheers from Mexico!
Thanks for these links, Dante. Communication is hard - yet I’m often surprised by how quickly and effectively I can make a small change in language for great effect. Really looking forward to diving into this material.
My pleasure, Charlie! It's been a game changer for me, and sharing it with others is super satisfying. Feel free to share any questions with me. Although I'm not a certified trainer (hahaha), I have multiple years of practice and experience with it and I love to talk about it. I hope you find value on it. Cheers!
I very much enjoyed listening to you both talk about kindness!
What you're describing as "kindness" sounds a lot like what Virginia Satir called "congruence", as describing a way of being and acting in relationship with others. She talked about taking in yourself, the other person, and the context you're both in, and responding from all that. Which sounds to me something like spaciousness.
When people first come across Satir's idea of congruence, they often come to think it's about "being yourself" and aligning your inner state with your expression. But that's not really it -- it might be sometimes! And it's not entirely irrelevant. But congruence, more deeply practiced, is more like a kind of spacious kindness that's also not placating the other.
I read some of Satir's work thirty years ago and was impressed, and have vaguely meant to revisit. This has pulled it forward in my priority queue!
Charlie uses the word "congruent" frequently; I wonder whether there's some direct or indirect influence there. They seem to mean similar things.
> they often come to think it's about "being yourself" and aligning your inner state with your expression
"Authenticity" is often used (technically as well as informally) to describe this. Many psychologically-oriented people do take it as the highest value—and I think that's a mistake.
> more like a kind of spacious kindness that's also not placating the other
Yes... a characteristic of spaciousness seems to be that it is highly personal in its awareness of all the intricate details of a situation and its context, and simultaneously doesn't take what is happening personally, doesn't think "it's about me," doesn't think that being "authentic" to what is "deeply inside" me is important, or that what is "inside me" is more relevant or significant than any of the rest of the details. And also even that what is "inside" the other person is not an overriding consideration in kindness. It's the quality of the interaction that matters, more than mental contents.
I touched on this in passing in my following post (https://meaningness.substack.com/p/ultraspeaking). This attitude seems to be fundamental to what Charlie teaches, and we'll probably discuss it much more in upcoming joint work.
I'm fairly convinced that Satir taught more-or-less tantric buddhism. But this is an unconventional take.
Virginia Satir's work can be tricky to get into. For example, some of her earlier work was taken and over-systemetized (stripped of depth) into NLP. She was not satisfied with how that turned out, I think. Some of the books about her apply some woo-ish meanings and extensions to what she wrote and taught. (I've found her actually teachings and practices notably free of woo; but being spacious teachings, there's a lot of room to add in what is perhaps extraneous...)
Although there are some good books by and about Satir's work, and these offer pointers to what the work is about, I've found it to be more of a lineage-based practice. Virginia taught at long immersive retreats, and passed on her knowledge deeply and practically and in person. The lineage includes the late Gerald Weinberg (known for his writing on software consulting and experiential learning), and Jean McLendon (a therapist and social worker). I consider Jean one of my teachers. If you wanted to be introduced, I'm sure she'd be delighted. I'm sure I'd be delighted by a conversation between you both.
Thanks, that second paragraph accords with my vague impressions (from long ago) about how she was (mis)interpreted.
Your offer at the end is very generous! I may get back to you and take you up on it in time—at minimum I'd want to read some of her work, so as not to be a complete ignoramus. What would you recommend as a starting point?
Very fun and endearing listen! Would love more conversations between you two :) I’m curious how you’d define kindness/being kind as I only remember you saying what it *wasn’t*?
I'm glad you liked it, Christofer!
We do have a list, currently with sixteen topics on it, so there may be lots more episodes coming. On the other hand, editing this one was a full day's work, which is an obstacle, and trades off against writing. On a third hand, I will probably get faster at the editing, and if we learn to talk more coherently, there will be less editing needed!
I would have a hard time trying to say what kindness *is*; it's a "know it when you see it" thing for me. Maybe Charlie could say more. They've posted it at https://vajrayananow.com/kindness-how, and you could ask there in a comment!
The reason I made the list of what it *isn't* was to point at it indirectly, by carving away bits of adjacent space. It turned out we only got to two of the items on the list... I hope we will be better organized next time!
Editing is also easier to outsource than writing - to take out errrs and ummms and false starts and long pauses etc.
Thanks for sharing, David, I enjoyed it a lot. After listening to your story of the couple on the elevator, I decided to ask you something I've wanted to ask a long time ago. Do you know Non Violent Communication, developed by Marshall Rosenberg? I believe you could derive a lot of value from it. Especially relevant to the story you told, but also, I believe, with a lot of relevance to other ideas you hold. You can think of CNV as a system for empathic, compassionate and kind communication, but also as an alternative framing of the world without moral judgments, based on needs and value judgments expressed responsibly and compassionately. Would love to hear your thoughts about it.
Thanks! I know *of* NVC, but I don't know much about it. Charlie got a copy of the book recently and it's sitting in an obvious place in the living room, but neither of us has gotten to read it yet.
The book is good, but honestly I believe it fails to really communicate the power of the perspective and strategies. In addition to the book, the best way to really understand are the videos of live workshops on YouTube: there is one of about three hours ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7TONauJGfc&pp=ygUMbnZjIHdvcmtzaG9w ), and another of around eight. Both are really beautiful and incredibly valuable in my estimation (I've attended to them at least three times each). Would love to listen to your (and Charlie's) take on them.
The elevator story made me immediately think "That's exactly as NVC empathic listening must seem to an open outside viewer", honestly, when done skillfully, is like magic. My interest goes beyond the techniques, to the philosophical/"spiritual" perspective, but precisely because of the great effect it have had on my relation with others and with myself.
I hope this maybe stimulate you to give it a chance. Of course, it might be a little bit the experience Charlie described as "finding a system for the first time", hahaha, but I'm not so sure about that (since is definitely not my first "system", I don't think anyone _should_ do or use it, etc.).
By the way, I feel grateful for your work, though I'm still getting to know it. I hope you continue doing it, because it seems very valuable to me. I hope to be able to work your IA book soon and hopefully share my questions and ideas around it with you (I already have it physically with me). Anyway, cheers from Mexico!
Thanks for these links, Dante. Communication is hard - yet I’m often surprised by how quickly and effectively I can make a small change in language for great effect. Really looking forward to diving into this material.
My pleasure, Charlie! It's been a game changer for me, and sharing it with others is super satisfying. Feel free to share any questions with me. Although I'm not a certified trainer (hahaha), I have multiple years of practice and experience with it and I love to talk about it. I hope you find value on it. Cheers!
I very much enjoyed listening to you both talk about kindness!
What you're describing as "kindness" sounds a lot like what Virginia Satir called "congruence", as describing a way of being and acting in relationship with others. She talked about taking in yourself, the other person, and the context you're both in, and responding from all that. Which sounds to me something like spaciousness.
When people first come across Satir's idea of congruence, they often come to think it's about "being yourself" and aligning your inner state with your expression. But that's not really it -- it might be sometimes! And it's not entirely irrelevant. But congruence, more deeply practiced, is more like a kind of spacious kindness that's also not placating the other.
Thanks, Steve, this is very interesting!
I read some of Satir's work thirty years ago and was impressed, and have vaguely meant to revisit. This has pulled it forward in my priority queue!
Charlie uses the word "congruent" frequently; I wonder whether there's some direct or indirect influence there. They seem to mean similar things.
> they often come to think it's about "being yourself" and aligning your inner state with your expression
"Authenticity" is often used (technically as well as informally) to describe this. Many psychologically-oriented people do take it as the highest value—and I think that's a mistake.
> more like a kind of spacious kindness that's also not placating the other
Yes... a characteristic of spaciousness seems to be that it is highly personal in its awareness of all the intricate details of a situation and its context, and simultaneously doesn't take what is happening personally, doesn't think "it's about me," doesn't think that being "authentic" to what is "deeply inside" me is important, or that what is "inside me" is more relevant or significant than any of the rest of the details. And also even that what is "inside" the other person is not an overriding consideration in kindness. It's the quality of the interaction that matters, more than mental contents.
I touched on this in passing in my following post (https://meaningness.substack.com/p/ultraspeaking). This attitude seems to be fundamental to what Charlie teaches, and we'll probably discuss it much more in upcoming joint work.
I'm fairly convinced that Satir taught more-or-less tantric buddhism. But this is an unconventional take.
Virginia Satir's work can be tricky to get into. For example, some of her earlier work was taken and over-systemetized (stripped of depth) into NLP. She was not satisfied with how that turned out, I think. Some of the books about her apply some woo-ish meanings and extensions to what she wrote and taught. (I've found her actually teachings and practices notably free of woo; but being spacious teachings, there's a lot of room to add in what is perhaps extraneous...)
Although there are some good books by and about Satir's work, and these offer pointers to what the work is about, I've found it to be more of a lineage-based practice. Virginia taught at long immersive retreats, and passed on her knowledge deeply and practically and in person. The lineage includes the late Gerald Weinberg (known for his writing on software consulting and experiential learning), and Jean McLendon (a therapist and social worker). I consider Jean one of my teachers. If you wanted to be introduced, I'm sure she'd be delighted. I'm sure I'd be delighted by a conversation between you both.
Thanks, that second paragraph accords with my vague impressions (from long ago) about how she was (mis)interpreted.
Your offer at the end is very generous! I may get back to you and take you up on it in time—at minimum I'd want to read some of her work, so as not to be a complete ignoramus. What would you recommend as a starting point?