Chöd might, sometimes, be about getting the demon to let go of you. In which case, it’s going from an altered state (maybe a kind of trauma state) into a normal state.
Would you agree that Dzogchen has other goals as well - which are including and going beyond Rigpa? AFAIK in the Menakde - achieving rainbow body or having a better next rebirth are some of the goals.
Yes... "Dzogchen" has been many fairly different things for different groups at different times. My take on it is mainly based in semde, and menngakde does have distinct methods and (perhaps?) different goals as well. I have a couple follow-up posts drafted that are about this.
Does it seem equally accurate to say that from the perspective of dzogchen, semde has no goal? If not, why not? (Equally accurate, that is, to saying that semde has no goals beyond rigpa.) If rigpa is always present, the goal is always already achieved and needs no maintenance, so there's no goal to move toward.
Noting: Semde seems useful for some goals. It could be a practice for its own sake (an aesthetic practice). But neither of those are "semde goals" --- they are the practitioner's purposes in doing semde.
> Does it seem [...] accurate to say that [...] semde has no goal?
I think so! I'd want to check some reference works before saying definitely yes, but as far as I recall "goal" isn't meaningful within the semde view.
> If not, why not? [...] If rigpa is always present, the goal is always already achieved and needs no maintenance, so there's no goal to move toward.
Yes, that's why not :)
That said, there are practices for reminding yourself of rigpa afresh, whenever you feel distracted. (They are called "sem dzin," "holders of the nature of mind.")
Well, yes and no! It's daunting if your only reason for doing that much meditation is the hope that maybe some day, years in the future, some abstract supposedly-good thing will happen.
If you have other reasons for meditating, it's just something that you may eventually come across. In the mean time, you get whatever the other benefits of meditation are for you, which keeps you going.
> A few years ago you said that you weren't qualified to practice dzogchen; are you qualified now?
Ah, excellent question, which gets to the heart of the issue discussed in this post.
Unlike all other Buddhist systems, Dzogchen is not a path to enlightenment. The other systems have prerequisites, practice methods, and a goal. Dzogchen doesn't have a path because the prerequisites, practice, and goal are all the same. There's no where to go, so there's no path.
The prerequisite for practicing Dzogchen is rigpa, which is enlightenment. So to say "I am qualified to practice Dzogchen" is logically equivalent to saying "I am a fully enlightened Buddha," which would be absurd.
On the other hand, according to Dzogchen, rigpa is always present, and therefore everyone is always already enlightened. You too are a fully enlightened Buddha, and therefore qualified to practice Dzogchen.
The non-method of Dzogchen is to "continue in the natural state," i.e. rigpa. The goal is rigpa, which is where you already are.
You can see that this is perfectly logical, although also aggravating and absurd. Unfortunately, Dzogchen is like that. So it's totally sensible to say "this is nonsense, I am not interested." On the other hand, some interesting people say it is interesting, so one might remain curious and keep an open mind.
>The goal is rigpa, which is where you already are.
>You can see that this is perfectly logical, although also aggravating and absurd.
Well, you also said that you practiced "dzogchen ngöndro", the goal of which is presumably to get better at maintaining a clear, undistracted state of mind. Seems logical that there are degrees of competence at that, and insofar as effective action according to dzogchen requires a clear, undistracted mind that people generally can't maintain by default, there does seem to be a non-trivial sense in which most people essentially aren't qualified to practice dzogchen. It would also seem logical that only someone who can maintain it all the time gets to be called a "fully enlightened Buddha".
Hmm. When I asked you whether you were qualified to practice dzogchen, I meant it in the non-trivial sense. How good would you say that you are at maintaining a clear, undistracted mind, and how much time/effort did it take you to get there?
I apologize if I'm being rude, but very few people seem to be willing/able to provide any clarity in this general area, and from my outsider point of view there doesn't have to be anything inherently clarity-repelling about it.
I like the point that things look very ordinary from the other side.
At the same time, I sometimes feel there’s a risk of collapsing that too quickly into “nothing much happened,” which doesn’t quite match how it unfolds in practice. There is something there, though it’s easy either to overplay the fireworks or to underplay the shift itself.
Maybe the tension is that what’s realised is simple, but the transition into that simplicity can be quite profound, sometimes messy, along the way.
Great video! I could be wrong here, but Rigpa seems very similar to Zen's 'ordinary mind.' Does the emphasis on 'clarity' in Dzogchen make the experience feel different than the 'emptiness' of Zen?
I haven't done Zen, and haven't studied it in depth, so I can't give a reliable answer. There are only few people who have and could, and they don't necessarily agree with each other.
Yes... maybe... people (ones who should know) talk about this in different, seemingly contradictory ways. "It's rigpa whether you recognize it or not" is a mainstream statement. Other things experts say other things.
If it's rigpa even if you don't recognize it, then rigpa looses it's meaning... and all the masters who talk non-stop about it should've stopped and become farmers instead.
I'd say the quality of rigpa is there, but if it's recognized or not - is what makes it rigpa or not. But that's just my opinion.
Every year at tax season, I make myself laugh by considering at some length why it is my True Will to be doing my taxes
That’s wonderful! I will try it.
It is certainly an insight generating practice!
This might not make any sense to anyone, but …
Chöd might, sometimes, be about getting the demon to let go of you. In which case, it’s going from an altered state (maybe a kind of trauma state) into a normal state.
Yes.
Would you agree that Dzogchen has other goals as well - which are including and going beyond Rigpa? AFAIK in the Menakde - achieving rainbow body or having a better next rebirth are some of the goals.
Yes... "Dzogchen" has been many fairly different things for different groups at different times. My take on it is mainly based in semde, and menngakde does have distinct methods and (perhaps?) different goals as well. I have a couple follow-up posts drafted that are about this.
What would you say are some of the Semde goals beyond rigpa?
I don't think there are any?
Does it seem equally accurate to say that from the perspective of dzogchen, semde has no goal? If not, why not? (Equally accurate, that is, to saying that semde has no goals beyond rigpa.) If rigpa is always present, the goal is always already achieved and needs no maintenance, so there's no goal to move toward.
Noting: Semde seems useful for some goals. It could be a practice for its own sake (an aesthetic practice). But neither of those are "semde goals" --- they are the practitioner's purposes in doing semde.
> Does it seem [...] accurate to say that [...] semde has no goal?
I think so! I'd want to check some reference works before saying definitely yes, but as far as I recall "goal" isn't meaningful within the semde view.
> If not, why not? [...] If rigpa is always present, the goal is always already achieved and needs no maintenance, so there's no goal to move toward.
Yes, that's why not :)
That said, there are practices for reminding yourself of rigpa afresh, whenever you feel distracted. (They are called "sem dzin," "holders of the nature of mind.")
you're awesome, thanks!
>You will probably need many hundreds, perhaps thousands, of hours of practice of the type that does—and it’s still easy to miss the point.
Seems daunting. A few years ago you said that you weren't qualified to practice dzogchen; are you qualified now?
> Seems daunting.
Well, yes and no! It's daunting if your only reason for doing that much meditation is the hope that maybe some day, years in the future, some abstract supposedly-good thing will happen.
If you have other reasons for meditating, it's just something that you may eventually come across. In the mean time, you get whatever the other benefits of meditation are for you, which keeps you going.
> A few years ago you said that you weren't qualified to practice dzogchen; are you qualified now?
Ah, excellent question, which gets to the heart of the issue discussed in this post.
Unlike all other Buddhist systems, Dzogchen is not a path to enlightenment. The other systems have prerequisites, practice methods, and a goal. Dzogchen doesn't have a path because the prerequisites, practice, and goal are all the same. There's no where to go, so there's no path.
The prerequisite for practicing Dzogchen is rigpa, which is enlightenment. So to say "I am qualified to practice Dzogchen" is logically equivalent to saying "I am a fully enlightened Buddha," which would be absurd.
On the other hand, according to Dzogchen, rigpa is always present, and therefore everyone is always already enlightened. You too are a fully enlightened Buddha, and therefore qualified to practice Dzogchen.
The non-method of Dzogchen is to "continue in the natural state," i.e. rigpa. The goal is rigpa, which is where you already are.
You can see that this is perfectly logical, although also aggravating and absurd. Unfortunately, Dzogchen is like that. So it's totally sensible to say "this is nonsense, I am not interested." On the other hand, some interesting people say it is interesting, so one might remain curious and keep an open mind.
>The goal is rigpa, which is where you already are.
>You can see that this is perfectly logical, although also aggravating and absurd.
Well, you also said that you practiced "dzogchen ngöndro", the goal of which is presumably to get better at maintaining a clear, undistracted state of mind. Seems logical that there are degrees of competence at that, and insofar as effective action according to dzogchen requires a clear, undistracted mind that people generally can't maintain by default, there does seem to be a non-trivial sense in which most people essentially aren't qualified to practice dzogchen. It would also seem logical that only someone who can maintain it all the time gets to be called a "fully enlightened Buddha".
Yes, that is also all true!
Hmm. When I asked you whether you were qualified to practice dzogchen, I meant it in the non-trivial sense. How good would you say that you are at maintaining a clear, undistracted mind, and how much time/effort did it take you to get there?
Not very, and some, respectively :)
I apologize if I'm being rude, but very few people seem to be willing/able to provide any clarity in this general area, and from my outsider point of view there doesn't have to be anything inherently clarity-repelling about it.
I like the point that things look very ordinary from the other side.
At the same time, I sometimes feel there’s a risk of collapsing that too quickly into “nothing much happened,” which doesn’t quite match how it unfolds in practice. There is something there, though it’s easy either to overplay the fireworks or to underplay the shift itself.
Maybe the tension is that what’s realised is simple, but the transition into that simplicity can be quite profound, sometimes messy, along the way.
Thank you. Yes, all of that, quite so!
pure obviousness is the best description I've ever heard... haha I loved this video mate!
Great video! I could be wrong here, but Rigpa seems very similar to Zen's 'ordinary mind.' Does the emphasis on 'clarity' in Dzogchen make the experience feel different than the 'emptiness' of Zen?
Glad you liked it!
I haven't done Zen, and haven't studied it in depth, so I can't give a reliable answer. There are only few people who have and could, and they don't necessarily agree with each other.
I've written what I could about this at: https://vividness.live/emptiness-zen-tantra-dzogchen#zen
It is rigpa if you recognize it. If you don’t recognize it, it’s not rigpa. Both are true.
Yes... maybe... people (ones who should know) talk about this in different, seemingly contradictory ways. "It's rigpa whether you recognize it or not" is a mainstream statement. Other things experts say other things.
If it's rigpa even if you don't recognize it, then rigpa looses it's meaning... and all the masters who talk non-stop about it should've stopped and become farmers instead.
I'd say the quality of rigpa is there, but if it's recognized or not - is what makes it rigpa or not. But that's just my opinion.
It doesn't seem to be the norm, but I actually enjoy the different types of accounting I have to do, even though I don't actually do my own taxes.
I don't have much to say about the main topic of the article, except that it's interesting.
'As Dõgen says, in his usual, very Tiantai way, "Enlightenment is enlightenment about delusion, delusion is delusion about enlightenment."'
— Brook Ziporyn