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Ari Nielsen's avatar

This usefully clarified and narrowed the scope of my understanding of your criticism of metaphysics to be metaphysical reasoning vs. metaphysical aesthetics.

Let me recapitulate the distinction, and to what degree we are in agreement or not.

Many distinct cultures that can be entered contain key metaphysical terms, for example "God" in Christianity.

When people participate in such cultures, their behavior is distinct from those who do not, and they also will describe patterns of behavior using the metaphysical language.

Such language is a poetics in the culture, metaphysics-as-aesthetics.

But weaving metaphysics into the poetics of a culture (aesthetics) is not intrinsically reasoning with metaphysics (though it certainly may lead to it).

mtraven's avatar

I liked this post, or at least I feel I understood what you are saying and (mostly) agree with it. I've been thinking a lot myself lately about the nature of the imaginal. This vast variety of fictional entities that somehow have real effects and thus are "real" in a practical sense – I find something both obvious and revolutionary about this idea. It would seem to have vast implications if taken seriously.

You talk about two classes of imaginal objects: mathematical and metaphysical. The first class are good because they are well-defined and there are ways to map them to the real world that are effective. The second class are bad because they lack these properties – they are nebulous, there is radical disagreement on which of them are valid and no way to verify or generate consensus (Sorry to drastically oversimplify).

I submit that the metaphysical imaginals, despite all the associated problems, are just as valuable as the mathematical kind. Necessary even. Our minds are built around them, we can't operate without them, although of course we can have better metatheories about them. Things like selves, values, abstract ideals like justice, gods even – we can't and shouldn't get rid of them.

I may be reacting to earlier posts where you take an eliminationist stance towards certain metaphysical entities, eg, here's a page from awhile back where I wrestle with your disdain for "values" https://hyperphor.com/ammdi/Meaningness%E2%88%95on-values . I think they are real and pretty important and not something to get rid of.

When I reread this post, think there isn't really a disagreement. You are saying that metaphysical ideas are often harmful, and I certainly can't argue with that.

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